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Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness Is, in Fact, Neural Microdamage Rather Than Muscle Damage (2020) Sonkodi et al

Discussion in 'Other health news and research' started by Hoopoe, Jul 10, 2020.

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  1. Hoopoe

    Hoopoe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  2. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Have We Looked in the Wrong Direction for More Than 100 Years? Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness Is, in Fact, Neural Microdamage Rather Than Muscle Damage

    Broken into paragraphs for easier reading.
     
  3. borko2100

    borko2100 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    DOMS's is one of my symptoms, it feels exactly the same as the DOM's I get after weight training. When it happens I wake up with my legs feeling sore, as if I was squating or sprinting intensively the previous day.

    I always thought it is due to the muscles not getting enough energy or lactic acid build up. But maybe it is just due to problem with the nerves after all.
     
  4. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This seems to be just a speculation, without much going for it as far as I can see.
     
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  5. InitialConditions

    InitialConditions Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It's a hypothesis paper with a title that states the hypothesis as fact. This shouldn't be allowed, and probably isn't is most reputable journals.
     
  6. junkcrap50

    junkcrap50 Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Could it be due to contracting or flexing your muscles during the night. I believe that is what is happening to me. I sometimes wake up with sore and tight muscles and feels like I had been flexing them all night. I can replicate or intensify the feeling by temporarily flexing the muscles for a bit. I have no idea why i'd be so tense while I'm sleeping.
     
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  7. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They admit its an hypothesis. We await further research. Most hypotheses fail, but in the long run science accumulates those that succeed.
     
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  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I know my muscles do badly with static stress. That is when they have to supply constant low level contraction for long periods of time. Stress on muscles from postural factors, including when sleeping, can lead to unending pain for me. So can voluntary static muscle load.
     
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  9. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They callout a hypothesis but they also say it is a fact (in the title). Science often accumulates wrong hypotheses pushed as facts, unfortunately.
     
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  10. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Some interesting ideas, and definitely worth studying, but I'm not convinced the issue of pain sensation is just in the muscle spindles themselves.
    For example, pain thresholds in muscle fascia have been shown to be increased due to DOMS, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25519953/
    Type II sensory fibers are focused on proprioception, rather than pain per se.

    The authors propose a curious gating/feedback mechanism to explain how both could be true, but this remains to be seen.

    I also suggest the associated sense of muscle stiffness can be due to an alteration of gamma motor drive, and thus gamma tone (which usually occurs as a central compensation when there are increased propropceptive prediction errors), or the gamma motor units are injured or fatigued and not responding as well as usual.

    There are also feedback loops between antagonistic muscles and resulting muscle spindle sensitivity. https://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/41/13644
    This balance could presumably be disturbed due to the hypothesised mechanical damage too.
     
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  11. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have a friend who is struggling with back pain. He tells me that it may not be damage but perception. So your body sets the amplitude of the output (pain level) rather that it being solely related to damage muscles etc.

    Having skimmed the abstract for maybe 60 seconds, I recall Jaime Seltzer's (ME Action) advice (re GET) is there a testable hypothesis? Can any of this be measured?

    Ron Tompkins's group (OMF Harvard) were due to start working on muscle biopsy's (with UK researchers). Any of this related to Ron's proposed work on muscle biopsy's?

    Any of this tested via the genetics (GWAS) study? E.g. is there anything organic which would link to a particular gene?
     
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  12. Snow Leopard

    Snow Leopard Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, but by torturing rats with electrodes...
     
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  13. FMMM1

    FMMM1 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thank you for your reply - not sure whether to like "Yes, but by torturing rats with electrodes..."!
     
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