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Open Cardiovascular Analysis of PEM, 2021, Natelson

Discussion in 'Recruitment into current ME/CFS research studies' started by John Mac, Feb 6, 2021.

  1. John Mac

    John Mac Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This trial is not yet open for recruitment (Start date May 2021)

    https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04740736
     
  2. MeSci

    MeSci Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Will participants be in-patients? I was a bit worried about the group who have the sham infusion and take part in the exercise, i.e. possible hyponatraemia.
     
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  3. Creekside

    Creekside Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    They could also induce PEM via cerebral exertion. Does anyone know whether socializing or other cerebral exertions are as likely to cause crashes as 'maximal exercise tests' are?

    I was going to suggest this to the researchers, but I couldn't find a way to contact them.
     
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  4. Denise

    Denise Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Would there be a point in including people who are hypovolemic AFTER exercise?
     
  5. Denise

    Denise Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Creekside some of the people who are qualified to do a 2 day CPET for PwME will do cognitive assessments before and after testing to add to reports. This assesses (of course) both cognitive and physical impact of exertion.
    I don't think there's been enough work on cognitive exertion and PEM. (Personal opinion.)
     
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  6. Denise

    Denise Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Eligibility criteria lists meeting SEID criteria as opposed to (for instance) having more focused criteria for this study.
     
  7. Creekside

    Creekside Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That doesn't help with understanding the impact of cognitive exertion. :thumbsdown:

    Experiments with cognitive exertion could lead to less-harmful methods of triggering PEM for research projects. That's assuming that cognitive-induced PEM actually is less harmful, which we don't know for sure, because no one's done research into that ... yet.
     
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  8. dreampop

    dreampop Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Are there any trials on PEM w/ heart variability, hr, blood pressure etc... just the bare fundamentals? Or possible more specific metrics?

    Edit: I've looked through a bunch of papers but almost all are tested during or immediately after the stress test and the test isn't really designed to trigger PEM (might in some, but not in others) but as a stress test of one type or another. Generally PEM isn't defined as coming on immediately.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  9. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Sorry to nitpick, but shouldn't they say 2 consecutive days, not 2 subsequent days?
     
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  10. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I was aware that being hypovolemic was a known symptom for some sufferers of ME, but something I wasn't aware of is that hypovolemia could be caused by exercise, so I've learned something new today.
     
  11. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Does it say anywhere that the hypovolemia is caused by the exercise? I can't see it. It seems to indicate the blood volume will be assessed before the exercise.
     
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  12. Arnie Pye

    Arnie Pye Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I may have misunderstood what I was reading.

    I'm assuming that the subjects are going to be doing exercises on 2 consecutive days, rather than 2 "subsequent" days.

    If they are measuring total blood volume before each exercise test then it suggests to me that they think that some people may become hypovolemic as a result of the exercise on day 1 even if they weren't hypovolemic before the first exercise test.
     
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