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Became Sick From Detox-I think..Please Help Me Assess.

Discussion in 'Other: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; GcMAF' started by LucyLouWho, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. LucyLouWho

    LucyLouWho Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I went on a protocol that requires you to take B12, zinc and drink celery juice everyday. As time went on I became sicker and sicker. The pain throughout my body was insane. I couldn't deal with the pain and was so sick, I could not even figure it out that the detoxing I was doing could be the cause. I was bathing in Epsom salts and ancient minerals with no help from it at all.

    The biggest issue is I was forgetting everything. I left my purse on the curb next to my car at an apartment complex. I also forgot my wallet several times when going out, forgot my phone, went to the post office to mail something only to leave that at home. My place is a mess inside. Today, I missed a doctor's appt due to not setting my alarm last night to get up and slept for 12 hours. This is not like me.

    I feel fucking crazy. Not psycho but like I can't remember anything. Plus, the pain is so high in my body I stopped the protocol.

    The pain is a little bit better but get this...now I almost feel worse mentally. I was taking 2500 mg of B12 a day if not more. Anyone else ever have this?

    I am worse now off of it. What is going on? I did celery juice today for the last time for a bit too. I can't do all of this detoxing. I am hoping that that is what is causing it and that I don't have some new disease.

    I was diagnosed with hypermobility spectrum disorder by a geneticist last week. Not happy at all. Not doing well. In bed and staying there.

    Can't handle stress of any kind.
     
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  2. zzz

    zzz Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sorry to hear of your current problems, MT.

    I would guess that what was causing the problem was the zinc supplement, as these do not sound like B12 problems, and it's hard to see how celery juice could cause this. But zinc supplementation can become toxic at levels that are not huge multiples of normal daily zinc supplementation. Furthermore, as I know you've discovered from your own experience, with our illness we can experience toxic effects from a drug or supplement at levels far below what other people do.

    One very common effect of zinc toxicity is pain. It's hard to see how either of the other two things you were taking could cause such intense pain. On very rare occasions, excess B12 may cause neuropathic pain, but that's extremely rare, and I don't think it would explain the level of pain you reported.

    Zinc toxicity is also one of the leading causes of copper deficiency, and copper deficiency can result in significant memory problems. So the zinc toxicity is the only mechanism I can think of that would explain both your pain and memory problems.
    This is not surprising; it sounds like the B12 was doing you good. Like other drugs, tolerance of B12 varies by person, but plenty of people can tolerate 2500 mcg per day or more. I personally have been taking 5000 mcg per day of methyl B12 for the last 16 years with no problems.

    So to me, it sounds like the B12 was doing you good, and that it was the zinc that was the culprit. You might want to try going back on the B12 and perhaps the celery juice, and if that works, you could even try a very small dose of zinc in addition if you wanted to, but I wouldn't recommend anywhere near the dose you were taking, whatever it was.

    In any case, good luck!
     
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  3. LucyLouWho

    LucyLouWho Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hey @zzz -it's possible but I believe many have problems with B12. I have been on zinc for 3 years with no issue. It was when I added B12. I have problems with almost all B vitamins and B6 always caused neuropathy for me and P5P...I am not sure.

    I felt manic like on B12. I was only on 7.5 mg of zinc. I was on a super high dose of B12 for me.

    I don't know but I know that I have stopped everything and I will find out what it is by not being on it all at once. It bums me out that every time I try to detox, I get so sick. Like deathly ill. But, I also have a lot going on.

    TY!!
     
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  4. Ryan31337

    Ryan31337 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Just my own experience but taking B12 on its own caused my folate (B9) to tank and make me feel considerably worse. Multivitamins & B complexes would also make me generally feel worse and more symptomatic.

    More recently I was recommended methylated multivitamins on account of 23andme results. I haven't had any repeat blood tests since taking these but subjectively I feel better with reduced symptoms, very different response.
     
  5. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Hi @LucyLouWho . I'm sorry to hear you are having such a horrible time.
    I am not clear what you mean when you say you are doing a detox. Do you mean you are fasting and just drinking celery juice, or do you mean you are eating a normal diet with celery juice added?

    You say you are following a protocol - there are an awful lot of protocols out there that have no scientific basis. From what I understand the whole idea of 'detoxing' may be a myth anyway, designed more for celebrities, including celebrity 'health practitioners' often with dubious qualifications, to sell diet books to the 'worried well', rather than for sick people to improve their health.

    I hope your symptoms improve soon. :hug::hug::hug:
     
  6. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I am also on a high dose b12 supplement (subdermal oil delivers around 2mg daily). I would also echo taking folate with b12 (and possibly b complex and iron).

    I have a folate depletion problem from the drug I take ...there are lots more symptoms of folate deficiency but the main symptoms for me are

    1) increased fogginess (memory recall, concentration) on top of the normal fogginess
    2) feeling emotional for no reason
    3) mouth ulcers
    4) indigestion/heartburn


    I take methylfolate 3 times a day (every 4 hrs). The additional fog bank rolls in like clockwork after each dose. After about 3.5bhrs I start to feel the effects of it wearing off. I take the folate and it lifts within 15 mins.

    The dose will probably be dependent upon how much b12 you are taking, so I would look at taking a proprietary b complex with folate in it initially and see what happens? If you get a positive effect you can experiment with dose/frequency etc. But I would start low first with the b complex and then consider taking folate on it’s own on top if you want to increase this, bearing in mind that iron and other b vitamins may need to be topped up the more you take.

    It’s also worth bearing in mind that if b12 levels are very low, then you may need to supplement for up to a year for your reserves to come back up to relatively normal levels.

    Not sure about the celery either ....green leaf vegetables are a good source in the diet and beans/legumes. I don’t think celery is a particularly good source of anything from memory apart from insoluble fibre and water and some trace minerals?

    I know there is a lot of woo out there to do with celery. if you have anything specific I can check the nutritional facts for you vs other vegetables. Let me know if anything specific has been claimed.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  7. brf

    brf Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Celery is extremely high in oxalate and many need to stay away from it, especially if you have gut issues.
    Oxalate sensitivity can cause pain.
    Googling the term may help you rule it in or out as a possibility.

    Best of luck with it!
     
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  8. Amw66

    Amw66 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    So sorry to hear you are struggling @LucyLouWho .
    I don' t have much scientific knowledge, but wanted you to know i am thinking if you.
    My aunt cannot do B vits. B12 had horrendous side effects- her 23andme results indicate a folate problem which may explain this - perhaps, like @Ryan31337 this may also help you.
    Sending a hug x
     
  9. LucyLouWho

    LucyLouWho Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    So, I came back with the MTHFR not needing methyl. That I am an overmethylator. So, the last thing I need is anything methyl. I will have to find it. It's on PR. @arewenearlythereyet But I will look into this.

    The celery juice to my knowledge did not give me pain. Since I wrote this original post, my pain has decreased from not being on the B12 anymore. And...this is weird....I am finally going to the bathroom. I could not for the life of me go to the bathroom on B12. #2 clearly. I was plugged up and would not go for days. I am suddenly going everyday now. Thank God.

    @Trish -I am adding celery juice to my regular eating. I have it first thing in the morning.

    Bottom line, I have Sjogrens, all kinds of auto immune issues and now hyper mobility spectrum disorder. Enough is enough. I am sick of getting sicker and sicker. I feel this need to do something about it so I feel that adding some much needed supplements might help. B12, I am low in. Or was with the test I took last year. So, I wanted to see if it would help. That and zinc. I am not going full tilt on some crazy diet. I don't want to. I need meat, protein, etc with veggies, but the celery juice can help first thing in the AM and it's high in sodium for my adrenals.


    I will need to look for my MTHFr test.
     
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  10. LucyLouWho

    LucyLouWho Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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  11. Trish

    Trish Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for clarifying that @LucyLouWho, I thought you were far too sensible to be taken in by crazy diets. Just thought it best to check.:hug::hug: :hug:
     
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  12. LucyLouWho

    LucyLouWho Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, thank you. No extreme diets. I tried doing Keto last year. I know some do really well on that but I can't imagine that much protein and fat being good for your liver. Who knows? I am putting more fruit in. And celery juice but that's it. It's beef for me baby! I look meats. Chicken, etc.
     
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  13. Ryan31337

    Ryan31337 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I hope you find something that works for you. We are all individual in our requirements.

    Interestingly there is evidence that non alcoholic fatty liver disease can be reversed through ketogenic diet and that appears to have been the case with me. My LFTs have never been so good :)
     
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  14. LucyLouWho

    LucyLouWho Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hi @Ryan31337 -what are LFT's? I agree, everyone needs something different.

    You know, I am not supposed to have methyl B12 and that is what this is. The woman I am dealing with said methylation does not exist...or that it's not right that those who are not supposed to have methyl can't have methyl B-12. Maybe she is wrong. What I have is methyl B12.
     
  15. zzz

    zzz Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    There are a lot of people who are unaware of the subtleties of the methylation cycle, and specifically how some people can be overly sensitive to methyl. Many people have a B12 deficiency but can't take methyl B12, like you. The problem, as you mentioned, is that you cannot tolerate excess methyl. Yet B12 eventually needs to be in its methylated form in order to be used by the body. The solution most frequently used is to take hydroxy B12; this form of B12 does not contain methyl, but is converted to methyl B12 by the body only on an "as needed" basis. This way, you get just the amount of B12 you need without getting overmethylated.

    One of the best brands of hydroxy B12 is Advanced Orthomolecular Research (AOR) Hydroxy B12. However, this is somewhat expensive. There is also Source Naturals HydroxoCobalamin Vitamin B-12, which is available at a quarter of the price per tablet. Both of these products contain 1000 mcg of hydroxy B12 per tablet, which is significantly less than what you were taking.

    Another useful brand to consider is Seeking Health Hydroxo B12, which is Amazon's Choice for hydroxy B12. Although the cost per tablet is similar to that of the AOR brand, each tablet contains 2000 mcg of hydroxy B12 instead of 1000 mcg; this is closer to the dose you used, but should be free of the side effects you experienced. If you do take the 2000 mcg dose, I would think that this would be the best choice; the brand is excellent, and the price per 1000 mcg is halfway between the AOR and Source Naturals brand.
     
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  16. LucyLouWho

    LucyLouWho Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @zzz -okay, get ready...I was trying to implement Anthony Williams protocol. Just a little and I KNOW that people on here hate this guy. I am on the fence about him and his beliefs, but I do know that my B12 is low. B12 and magnesium. I put the magnesium on again today and it burns my body.

    Anyway, the woman I am working with who is most kind and got better from his protocol says it must be a methyl B12. Does it matter? Why does it even matter? Also, I really like the liquid B12. I have hydroxy B12 from 3 years ago. Is that too long ago? Meaning, did it go bad?

    I don't think $23 is too expensive. I am really wanting to try the liquid as it does the job pronto. I am not sure why I have an issue with methyl. I don't understand it, but yes, I am an overmethylator and so should not have it, that is all I know.

    The celery juice is supposed to clean out the ammonia. I did horrible on molybdenum in 2015 so that is an absolute no way.

    Thanks for such a keen response. I really appreciate it. I understood it.
     
  17. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hi @LucyLouWho

    I take methyl folate but you can take in folate through other forms. Best through the diet but if you need to via supplementation (straight folic acid)

    Taking a large dose of b12 could deplete your folate from your diet since they are paired together metabolically. So one needs the other to work properly. Certainly folate depletion can give you similar symptoms to b12 depletion ...some of what you describe could be this. Although everyone is different and has different needs etc.

    I read a lot on PR about methyl this and special snp’s that Etc as well but in the end I took a more practical approach by taking my main advice from the pernicious anaemia lot. This was mainly since I found the PR threads rather over complicated and strange sometimes...it kind of felt like picking over 100’s or contradictory accounts that all had different accounts of what to do.

    There is a good site here, where they give free advice, review test results etc. And you can ask questions of people who have low b12 for various reasons. It also seems to be quite absent of woo. They also reference guidelines and papers too :) Good luck

    https://healthunlocked.com/pasoc
     
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  18. LucyLouWho

    LucyLouWho Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Oh, this is great. Thanks so much. I have a ferritin deficiency but my iron is in range. A few years ago I did have anemia. I will look into this as I don't want to mess myself up more by depriving one mineral or vitamin of another. Not good and I did not know this. That you had to have folate in order for B12 to work or work in range.

    Thanks again!!
     
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  19. Ryan31337

    Ryan31337 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hi @LucyLouWho,

    Liver Function Tests, standard panel of ALT, bilirubin etc. I had a slightly enlarged liver and increasingly elevated ALT & bilirubin that improved after removing carbs. Only 2-3 times the normal range so not enough to attract suspicion of primary liver disease so it was assumed NAFLD. It is interesting to see how metabolic and muscle diseases can impact the liver in this way too.

    Ryan
     
  20. Mij

    Mij Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I"ve had elevated bilirubin off and on for years. I'm not sure why that occurs.

    @LucyLouWho I've had below normal ferritin levels (and B12) for over 20 years and had to take iron supplements continuously. It was very frustrating. When I went into menopause a few years ago my ferritin went up to 98(!) on it's own. I hope this will be the case for you too.
     
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