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David Tuller: Trial By Error: Professor Sharpe’s Pre-Hearing Briefing for Monaghan

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS news' started by Andy, Jul 2, 2018.

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  1. Andy

    Andy Committee Member

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    http://www.virology.ws/2018/07/02/t...or-sharpes-pre-hearing-briefing-for-monaghan/
     
    Andy, Jul 2, 2018
    #1
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  2. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    - Between us, we have very many decades of clinical and research experience in trying to help people with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), also called Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME).

    Ah, here comes the Schrödinger logic again. PACE is at the same time both about CFS, also called ME - and exclusively about CFS.

    https://twitter.com/user/status/1009768534350663680
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
    Kalliope, Jul 2, 2018
    #2
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  3. Sasha

    Sasha Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Glad to have this exposed, @dave30th.

    What a pile of crap. Makes it all very clear why Michael Sharpe and his colleagues strenuously avoid live, public debate with knowledgable people in a forum that the PACE authors can't shut down when they lose control of the narrative.
     
    Sasha, Jul 2, 2018
    #3
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  4. Cheshire

    Cheshire Moderator Staff Member

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    OMG, this is an exercise in bad faith, nearly all their statements are contentious (going from half truths to blatant lies "There was no ‘outcome-switching’.")

    This remark is particularly laughable:
     
    Cheshire, Jul 2, 2018
    #4
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  5. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Sly Saint, Jul 2, 2018
    #5
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  6. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I couldn't disagree more. It's essential that we keep on debunking this nonsense. I'm happy to take on the task if no-one else has the energy!
     
    Lucibee, Jul 2, 2018
    #6
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  7. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    well, I kind of disagree with myself as well. I just didn't want to spend time repeating the same things I've written 500 times. I assumed commenters would take on the task. I'd just rather spend time clipping my toenails or watching milk sour or something else.
     
    dave30th, Jul 2, 2018
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  8. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    :wtf: He he! I think it was good to post it quickly. I’ve used a screen shot to point out the ME/not ME inconsistentency over on Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/user/status/1013737021293162496
     
    Keela Too, Jul 2, 2018
    #8
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  9. Hoopoe

    Hoopoe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Lucibee May I suggest a virology guest post @dave30th?
     
    Hoopoe, Jul 2, 2018
    #9
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  10. large donner

    large donner Guest

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    Right now there are about 4 or 5 hardcore BPS proponents who can bring themselves to try to defend the PACE trial and most of them were involved in it in some way, at least the philosophy before hand.

    The so called small number of academics opposing it is actually now well into the hundreds judging by all the letters, critiques, reanalysis and signed support against PACE.

    Also show me a charity that actually supports the PACE trial to the extent he can claim the only other critiques in the patient sector are "activists".
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
    large donner, Jul 2, 2018
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  11. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    Clinical trials are to compare treatments with each other, placebo, or no treatment at all, not to compare treatments with themselves over time.

    Sharpe himself says so earlier in the same document:

    It is a fact that the CBT & GET arms maintained their effect size at follow-up. But that is not the relevant fact, which is that there was no difference between trial arms at follow-up.

    From abstract of PACE's own follow-up paper, on which Sharpe is listed as lead author:

    There was little evidence of differences in outcomes between the randomised treatment groups at long-term follow-up.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(15)00317-X/fulltext

    The follow-up paper reported a null result. Neither CBT nor GET offered any long-term benefit over APT or SMC.

    Therefore, PACE provided no justification for using CBT or GET for patients with CFS or ME.

    There is no other possible interpretation of those results.

    A little later down the page, he says:
     
    Sean, Jul 2, 2018
    #11
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  12. Philipp

    Philipp Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I do find it oddly comforting that even he himself cannot keep up with his own bullshit. No, wait, I'm sure he is on top of it and what he intended to communicate was that some people which are very much not him use 'ME' and 'CFS' interchangeably but he has no control over that and has to clarify yaddayaddayadaa... Which reminds me of other things I am sure he was always on top of.

    In the incredibly unlikely event that there is any chance whatsoever that he, in fact, was not completely on top of everything at some point while chasing the bounties Coyne spoke of, is there any chance we might ever get to see what Sharpe wrote about someone diagnosed with ME as an assessor? It's just that it would really make my day if I could admire how much dexterity it takes to never confuse, say, appropriate recommendations and realistic assessments of someone with ICC-ME with the same thing in someone with 'PACE-CFS'.
     
    Philipp, Jul 2, 2018
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  13. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Lucibee, Jul 2, 2018
    #13
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  14. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Intro:

    Sign off:

    So how many PACE investigators read and approved this document before it was sent?

    Also - this document had one reference. I can't tell if that's meant to be a joke or not.
     
    Esther12, Jul 2, 2018
    #14
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  15. Lucibee

    Lucibee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Well it clearly had a *huge* effect on the debate, didn't it! I don't think Sharpe was expecting to have to apologise after providing that as a briefing...
     
    Lucibee, Jul 2, 2018
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  16. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have updated the post with a link to Lucibee's analysis. Thanks!
     
    dave30th, Jul 2, 2018
    #16
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  17. dave30th

    dave30th Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    PACE contains multitudes, like the Bible. No other evidence or references required. It is Truth incarnate.
     
    dave30th, Jul 2, 2018
    #17
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  18. Diluted-biscuit

    Diluted-biscuit Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Diluted-biscuit, Jul 2, 2018
    #18
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  19. Keela Too

    Keela Too Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I just checked. Apparently not. I guess I should have properly tagged him in the Tweet.
     
    Keela Too, Jul 2, 2018
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  20. Alvin

    Alvin Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    My takeaway from this is that he still believes his own lies and he interprets fact finding as a witch hunt.
    Not that this is a revelation of any magnitude.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
    Alvin, Jul 2, 2018
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