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Cochrane review: Non-pharmacological interventions for somatoform disorders and medically unexplained physical symptoms (MUPS) in adults. 2014

Discussion in 'Other psychosomatic news and research' started by Sly Saint, Sep 20, 2019.

  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25362239
    http://sci-hub.tw/10.1002/14651858.CD011142.pub2#

    Of note
    curious that this Cochrane review doesn't get so much 'attention'o_O

    eta: see also Cochrane Clinical Answers
    https://www.cochrane.org/news/cochrane-clinical-answers
    Question:
    What are the effects of psychological therapies for adults with somatic symptom disorder or medically unexplained physical symptoms (MUPS)?
    March 2019

    https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cca/doi/10.1002/cca.2344/full
     
    Midnattsol, inox, Chezboo and 18 others like this.
  2. Jonathan Edwards

    Jonathan Edwards Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    It is very lukewarm, yet there is still the sort of sloppy wording that suggests that the people doing the study fail to understand the real problems. They say:

    'For all studies comparing some form of psychological therapy with usual care or a waiting list that could be included in the meta‐analysis, the psychological therapy resulted in less severe symptoms at end of treatment'

    What they mean is:

    'For all studies comparing some form of psychological therapy with usual care or a waiting list that could be included in the meta‐analysis, allocation to the psychological therapy group resulted in less severe symptoms being reported at end of treatment'

    The people doing these reviews do not seem to understand that if risk of bias is high you cannot talk of an 'effect' being small or moderate, only a difference.
     
  3. ME/CFS Skeptic

    ME/CFS Skeptic Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    MEMarge, Lidia, Annamaria and 11 others like this.
  4. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Rejecting reality and substituting one's own is always a bad idea. Taking diseases with multiple symptoms and arbitrarily reducing them to a single secondary symptom leads to completely absurd situations like this.

    Not that FM and whatever they mean by fatigue should be in that list, but it's pretty ridiculous how the failures compound with one another in blatant rejection of reality. This is broken beyond repair. The whole EBM is broken beyond repair if it's not even self-consistent and leads to absurd contradictions like this.

    Since I saw it yesterday, this quote is very fitting:
     
  5. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    according to this report Bodily distress syndrome (4 studies) was included in the review.
    see page 109

    Evidence-based psychological interventions in the treatment of Mental Disorders; 2018 review
    The Australian Psychological Society Limited (APS)

    https://www.psychology.org.au/getme...f26fae/Evidence-based-psych-interventions.pdf
     
    Amw66 likes this.
  6. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    https://www.psychology.org.au/getme...f26fae/Evidence-based-psych-interventions.pdf

    These are our solutions. If you don't like them, there are plenty more where they came from.
     
  7. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    This Cochrane review from 2014 posted by @SlySaint is worth reviewing in the context of the long promised new Cochrane review of exercise therapy for ME/CFS.

    The 2014 review is about MUPS
    It would be very interesting to know what the current Cochrane Exercise Review for ME/CFS team's stance is on whether ME/CFS is a MUPS condition. On the face of it, if you are going to allow MUPS to be a thing, I see no reason why ME/CFS isn't currently a type of it.

    @Medfeb, this 2014 guideline is perhaps of use in making some arguments to those in Cochrane who need convincing that unblinded studies with no good objective outcomes typically have such a high risk of bias as to be useless. For example, how do therapists who swear that CBT is effective in MUPS reconcile that with these findings?
    The authors seemed to have made a big effort on searching for relevant studies
    Despite that effort,
    Admittedly this study is a bit old, but still - no studies of physical therapy for MUPS at that time? Aside from the fact that they clearly excluded ME/CFS from the MUPS scope, it is incredibly hard to believe that if exercise therapy was of any use at all for MUPS, there was not a single RCT evaluating the therapy. I mean, with the funds sloshing around for BPS studies, surely if GET was great at fixing people with MUPS, someone would have done a study of it?


    What they mean is even more limited than that, if you consider the effect of survivorship bias on top of the selection bias and the outcome interpretation bias. The people allocated to psychological therapy who got worse and couldn't physically make it to the sessions, and the people told the therapist exactly where they could put their false illness beliefs I am sure were not well represented in those filling out the questionnaires at the end of the studies.

    @Caroline Struthers, @Hilda Bastian

    (I may well have missed something in the ongoing Cochrane saga)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2022
  8. Medfeb

    Medfeb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Hutan - speaking for myself, MUPS is a clinical thing only in the minds of those who promote it. IMO, it's unscientific to base a clinical entity solely on the lack of evidence and lack of current scientific knowledge.
     
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  9. Hutan

    Hutan Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks
    Indeed, and yet Cochrane seems to embrace the term.

    I note that Cochrane reinterpreted the 2014 MUPS report in 2019 with a Cochrane Clinical Answers entry
    This Clinical Answer removes much of the uncertainty expressed in the 2014 review, making psychological therapies sound more helpful for MUPS.
    For example, on harms:

    I would be very interested to know if Cochrane officially regards ME/CFS as a MUPS condition.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2022
  10. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That sounds like a line from a comedy show.
     
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  11. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    The intervention groups reported no major harms... because the researchers didn't measure them.
     
  12. rvallee

    rvallee Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    If you de-medicalize harms, no medical harms occurred.

    100% success if you define success as not finding failure, by not allowing it to be found. It's infallible!
     
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