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Sickness behaviour – useful concept or psycho-humbug?

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS news' started by Woolie, Nov 22, 2017.

  1. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    If you're interested @barbc, there's a fascinating book by John Bradshaw called "In defence of dogs". He puts all these arguments forward, and describes many of the delightful little social gestures that go on between members of a wolf pack - play, nuzzling, etc.

    There's a nice review here: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2011/jul/24/in-defence-of-dogs-review
     
  2. barbc

    barbc Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Thanks @Woolie . Maybe we need a forum for book recommendations!
     
  3. barbc

    barbc Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    You say that like it’s a bad thing! :D
     
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  4. arewenearlythereyet

    arewenearlythereyet Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Like how this thread has rambled. Also think that a lot of animals fake death ...that is a normal behaviour to avoid predators. I haven't read the dragonfly theory but from memory insect copulation doesn't always work out well for the male once he's fulfilled his commitment. Think I would be celibate if I was a dragonfly ...that is if I had sufficient cerebral cortex...I know they have big heads...but don't they just have small ganglia?

    Perhaps the old adage should read, fight, flight or fake death.
     
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  5. Jenny TipsforME

    Jenny TipsforME Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    In Defence of Dogs is an excellent book.

    Re this topic I haven’t read the full thread. I’m not sure what I think about the actual biology of whether our behaviour demonstrating ME comes more from the brain’s interpretation of the best course of (in)action given xyz bio problems, or if the bio abnormalities make normal activity impossible whatever messages are coming from the brain.

    I’d veer more towards the latter. Eg Julia Newton’s muscle samples are abnormal when no longer connected to the brain. When Ron Davis is testing the mystery element in the blood it’s causing problems, or responding to other substances, again separated from the rest of the human body (though perhaps plausible that this is something to do with signaling sickness behaviour).

    What I’m more concerned about is the agenda behind the theory. It could be a reasonable, neutral line of investigation. It can also be used to make patients feel lazy and deluded and given with harmful advice. It reminds me of a physio who told me that pain in my knee when I walked didn’t indicate I was damaging it further. Seeing as I have a lose bit of bone in my knee (which had been shown on x-ray and moves around) I wasn’t convinced by his confidence about me exercising regardless of pain and seeing the lump move around. The evidence to say we should ‘act normal’ and ignore signals for sickness behaviour just isn’t there.
     
  6. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Agreed. But evolution tends towards fostering behaviours that overall benefit the survival of species. Which will tend to include behaviours that increase the chances of an individual's survival, but maybe not at the expense of the wider population. It is even possible that in some species it acts as a warning sign for others to keep away.
     
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  7. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That just feels right. The other half of that question would be: Do the mechanisms that fight the illness, themselves consume additional energy? Instinctively feels that will be the case. Which might tie in with diverting energy from non-life-critical energy consumers. A bit like (I think I recall this right) the way the body responds to some injuries by withdrawing blood flow from extremities, to retain supply to life-critical subsystems.
     
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  8. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think that is a pretty neat encapsulation. I especially like "underpinned by a state of energy depletion", which is not a phrase typically used when describing ME, but maybe should. Persistent and unrelenting energy depletion really does underpin ME.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2017
  9. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    We had our goldie from 8 weeks to nearly 17 years, and although he surely knew how to "give you the look" with those big beautiful brown eyes, and though he got very sick quite a few times in his life, he never played the sick card. You might reasonably ask how we could know, but actually it was incredibly easy; when he was sick he was vomiting and diarrhoea, temperature, etc. And moreover the one thing he was incapable of was eating anything, let alone treats; we were only too delighted when we could tempt him again.

    So although I agree dogs will sham starvation and broken hearts ( :laugh: ) to get their treats, I've never known one to sham illness.

    Shamming illness is not unknown in animals of course. There are some ground nesting birds (cannot recall which, but think there is at least one species in the UK) which will pretend to have a broken wing to tempt a predator away from the nest, before then flying off.
     
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  10. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Just to add another confusion, predators are typically wary of eating obviously-diseased prey.

    I can't vouch for the veracity of the information in the following link, but it's someone from a wildlife rescue organisation. Also includes info on animals faking illness to escape predators. Interestingly this chap describes it as an "involuntary physiological response".

    https://www.quora.com/How-much-of-a-risk-is-it-for-predators-to-eat-sick-prey
     
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  11. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm sure some of our most deeply embedded behaviours originate from before we had even evolved into humans
     
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  12. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Could be
     
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  13. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Agreed.
     
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  14. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Ofcourse it does. When a system must work harder it consumes more energy.
     
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  15. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think it may be a little more to it when it comes to ME. ME is just different somehow, and I think people with no understanding of it get fooled by that difference. They are convinced they understand what is going on, but are actually totally misunderstanding. All heavily reinforced by official medical opinion and high profile media stories.

    To an "outsider", someone with ME can seem to superficially exhibit the behaviours of someone totally different. There are people throughout society who will play whatever sympathy card they can, and some of those play the sick card. Outsiders typically think this is what they are seeing when the see someone with ME, because they think they recognise the same behaviours: Sometimes having energy to do some things, other times not; sometimes able to socialise; sometimes not; etc.

    Basically and very unfortunately, people who don't have ME, or who have no real insights, observe snapshots of two very different groups of people, and from those snapshots conclude they are the same.

    Any advocacy focusing on changing public opinion regarding ME, has to understand and tackle this no matter how distasteful it is, else will get nowhere.
     
  16. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Nothing is, is it? Random selection?
     
  17. Scarecrow

    Scarecrow Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    You mean natural selection? It's more of a biased randomness.
     
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  18. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    trial and error
     
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  19. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Surely if those responses are involuntary, and have evolved to aid survival in a given sickness scenario, they still count as symptoms, even if secondary ones?
     
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  20. Barry

    Barry Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes agreed. The candidate traits occur randomly, and prevailing conditions then determine which of those traits potentially persist in a species as worthwhile survival traits. I was really emphasising that design has nothing to do with it.
     
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