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Per Fink - speaker at Swiss Re Ins Summit 15 - 17 Nov 2017

Discussion in 'PsychoSocial ME/CFS News' started by Sly Saint, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think Peter White was due to speak at this (?)




    But they seem to have had Per Fink.....


    Per Fink

    Head of Research and Chief Physician, The Research Clinic for Functional Disorders, Aarhus University Hospital

    In 1999, Per Fink started The Research Clinic for Functional Disorders at Aarhus University Hospital; a clinic with an interdisciplinary approach to functional disorders. The unit is first and foremost a research unit focusing on research in functional symptoms or medically unexplained symptoms as well as on developing treatment programmes for patients with these symptoms.

    A primary focus during the years was primary care, where a treatment programme for primary care doctors was developed. The purpose of the programme was to teach the doctors how to handle patients with functional disorders in general practice. The programme has now been incorporated in the specialist training for primary care doctors.

    Another area of special focus is classification, and he has developed research criteria for both Bodily Distress Syndrome and Health Anxiety.

    Per Finks has won several awards and honours for his contribution to research within the field of psychosomatic medicine.


    http://institute.swissre.com/events/Insurance_Medicine_Summit_2017.html#tab_5
     
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  2. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This was David Tullers blog about it:
    "Swiss Re has released information about its 2017 “insurance medicine summit,” to be held this coming November. Not surprisingly, Professor White is on the schedule. Although he has retired from his academic position, he apparently continues his work promoting his egregious research to insurers. His talk is called “Burn out, vital exhaustion and chronic fatigue syndrome: Old wine in new bottles?” Presumably he will once more be discussing the false PACE trial results and perhaps the campaign of “harassment” that he claims angry patients have waged against him."

    http://www.virology.ws/2017/08/07/trial-by-error-retired-pace-investigator-peter-white-and-swiss-re/

    looks like he (PW) dropped out?
     
  3. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Looks like both Peter White and Debbie Smith disappeared from their timetable.

    Someone said Smith was also at Barts, and she was due to speak on:

    "Postural Orthostatic Tachycardia Syndrome (POTS): A claims epidemic waiting to happen?
    Debbie Smith, Chief Medical Officer, Swiss Re"​

    https://web.archive.org/web/2017080...nts/Insurance_Medicine_Summit_2017.html#tab_4

    Finks Presentation is here, although I found it a bit hard to interpret some of the slides without hearing his talk: http://media.swissre.com/documents/Presentation+Per+Fink.pdf

    Pia Cox's presentation is also of interest. They can cure us!... or at least, assume they can and then cut off people's incomes regardless: http://media.swissre.com/documents/Presentation+Pia+Cox.pdf

    Slide 17:

    • Unlimited coverage for – physiological diseases (e.g. cancer) – major mental disorders (e.g. schizophrenia, psychotic disorders, etc.)
    • 2 years of coverage for treatable mental disorders and stress-related conditions with proactive return-to-work assistance
    Revamped Income Care 2017​


    Slide 21:

    o Unlimited coverage for:
    o bipolar disorder
    o psychotic disorder
    o dissociative disorder
    o obsessive - compulsive disorder
    o schizophrenia o anorexia nervosa
    o bulimia nervosa

    o In cases whether occupational incapacity leave has been taken for depression or another mental disorder (incl. burnout, CFS and fibromyalgia), coverage will be capped at a maximum of two years, whether consecutive or intermittent.
    o This two - year limit will be extended to include inpatient stays in a psychiatric hospital ( if start date prior to expiration of two - year period )​
     
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  4. Sean

    Sean Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Old wine in new bottles?

    Where have I heard that before?
     
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  5. Wonko

    Wonko Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Surely, and petantically, putting old wine in new bottles would greatly devalue the wine, if it was left with any value at all.

    So possibly not the best phrasing/example PW could have picked, for his purposes.
     
  6. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    @Nathalie Wright - you might be interested in Pia Cox's presentation above, and the use of claims about the benefits of rehabilitation to justify a time-limit for cutting off insurance benefits.
     
  7. TiredSam

    TiredSam Moderator Staff Member

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    How lucky they were to find a speaker of similar quality at short notice.
     
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  8. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    The crux of it seems to be Central Sensitization, and reclassification of certain conditions as Bodily distress syndrome:
    "
    Implications for new classification
    •Bodily distress syndrome
    –Severe (multi-organ system type)
    –Moderate (single-organ system type)
    •CP type
    •GI type (incl. IBS)
    •MS type (incl. Fibromyalgia)
    •General symptoms type (incl. CFS/ME)
    •Health anxiety
    •Others "

    He then seems to cover the insurance/disability pension side of things and then the cost-effectiveness of CBT............and a trial on Imipramine (?)
    2 books (ofcourse !) Functional Disorders and Medically Unexplained Symptoms,
    and Medically Unexplained Symptoms, Somatisation, and Bodily distress.

    Oh my.:p:emoji_strawberry: (no raspberry emoji)
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
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  9. Nathalie Wright

    Nathalie Wright Established Member

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    Perfect thanks
     
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  10. MEMarge

    MEMarge Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Oh no, not central sensitisation again!
    Trudie C managed to get that in just before the end of the Q&A, following the morning session at the fatigue conference. This was after a few speakers including Julia Newton. Some of the questions and responses were reasonable, but I suspect the conference got more psychological after that.
     
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  11. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This seems to be the main theory among the BPSers on the continent, particularly in Spain.
    I think those over here like Chalder are picking up on it so I expect we will be hearing a lot more about it soon........particularly in relation to MUS.

    groan.
     
  12. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes, but it also seemed like maybe some of his slides were intended to represent bad practice/misguided views? The third from final slide then contrasted assumptions from reality.

    upload_2017-11-21_17-3-10.png
     
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  13. Sly Saint

    Sly Saint Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think those can be read in quite different ways.
    I think from his perspective he is trying to show (a bit like Wessely et al) that these patients have been 'long neglected/not taken seriously' but in fact are all suffering from BDS and respond to his treatments.

    eta: if you watch Unrest, the bits that feature Per Fink are quite illuminating.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
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  14. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Oh yes, I'm not saying Fink is a good guy! But, for example, I was still surprised he saw concerns about patients being preoccupied with symptoms as a myth.
     
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  15. Trish

    Trish Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I notice the careful wording in the last bit
    'The problem is physical symptoms. It is a distinct disorder of its own.'

    What does this mean? OK it's given as the correct interpretation in place of 'The symptoms represent a (disguised) mental disorder.'

    But I notice it does not say it is a physical disorder. It says the symptoms are physical, not that the disorder is physical. And what on earth does 'a distinct disorder of its own' mean? Neither a physical or a mental disorder? Does that make it an imaginary disorder?
     
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  16. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Physical symptoms... from?

    Lots of his 'reality' points seem really problematic.

    The whole idea of lumping together patients with such a wide range of different complaints seems likely to do so much harm.
     
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  17. Scarecrow

    Scarecrow Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    He certainly doesn't say 'a distinct disease of its own', that's for sure.

    Perhaps he means that the symptoms are real in that they are genuinely perceived but that there is no sign of physical disease. Which basically means a truly functional disease (in a biological sense) but the nature of the dysfunction has not been identified or he means a "functional" disease in the sense that many psychiatrists are neurologists might mean.

    In the latter case it is true to say that the disorder is not mental, i.e. of the mind, because it could be a dysfunction of the nervous system - but not one associated with a physiological dysfunction. Which when you think about it makes no sense whatsoever so my money is on that. Plus biological functional diseases are well recognised.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2017
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  18. strategist

    strategist Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    I'm afraid you're being persuaded by talk that is meant to persuade. These people are not honest. To know what they really think, you have to look at their actions. In the case of Fink that includes forcibly removing Karina Hansen from her home and trying to cure her ME with forced exercise and antipsychotics.

    Also see this http://blogs.plos.org/mindthebrain/...y-for-whatever-ails-your-physician-about-you/

    It's still illness delusion to them. What you're seeing is a rebranding, an attempt to save a deeply unpopular and scientifically troubled concept by changing language.
     
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  19. Cheshire

    Cheshire Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That's what the insurance companies want to hear. A bit of CBT GET, and then just throw away the patients if they are non responders to these wonderful and efficient treatments.
     
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  20. Esther12

    Esther12 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I think I failed to be clear. I was writing on the assumption everyone would realise I do not respect Fink's work. I wasn't saying that I found him persuasive, just that I was not entirely clear on his position from the slides, and was surprised by some parts of his myth vs reality slide.
     
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