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Non-ME harmful/incorrect psychological/psychiatric theories and treatments

Discussion in 'Health News and Research unrelated to ME/CFS' started by Viola, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    I wasn't sure where to post this. I thought it might be useful to have a thread regarding other psychological/psychiatric theories and treatments which turned out to be harmful. Some of these were fairly common until recently.

    These might be useful examples of how a profession can go wildly wrong, and some of these were fairly recent.

    Some of it it looks like the professions involved got an idea, and got carried away with it, a bit too much in love with their own theories. It reminds me a bit of how the Biopsychosocial view has held such sway, and I think they have also fallen in love a bit with their own ideas which is why they refuse to change them when the evidence contradicts what they are saying.

    Edit: Some of these make references to sexual abuse (both real and implanted).

    Refrigerator mothers (Coyne just posted this today, it is short)



    Multiple Personality Disorder


    [the image quality is a bit poor in the beginning of this but it improves. This is good on the harm therapy can do, as well as the problem of professionals seeing what they want to see regardless of the evidence]

    Former patient describes MPD therapy with Dr. Colin Ross on the Sally Jesse Raphael Show 1993.



    (I haven't watched all of this yet but is is very interesting. One former patient admits that she lied a bit initially, partly to give the therapist what they were looking for, but she eventually got sucked into the whole thing herself. Social psychologist from Berkley very critical of repressed memories and mpd diagnosis. Berkley comes to the rescue again :thumbsup:)

    Satanic Ritual Abuse


    [It is ages since I watched this but as far as I can remember someone in it comments that it was people with insurance covering "treatment" for satanic ritual abuse were much more likely to be diagnosed with it than those without coverage]

    I might comment on a few specific parts of these documentaries later.
     
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  2. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    One thing that stood out from watching these is that the patient acts out the diagnosis, even when it is clearly incorrect, even when the patient initially knew that.
     
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  3. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A thread like this wouldn't be complete without a piece on Munchausen's by proxy.
    Parents demand gag on cot death doctor's lectures (from 2005)

    Outrage at international acclaim for Meadow

    Struck by the similarities to some of the babblers in our area, that continue to draw audiences despite their harmful ideas.
     
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  4. Valentijn

    Valentijn Moderator Staff Member

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    Conversion therapy for homosexuality and other aspects of sexual identity.
     
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  5. Art Vandelay

    Art Vandelay Established Member

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    Recovered memory syndrome - the pseudo-scientific idea that traumatic memories from childhood can be suppressed by the mind and that these repressed memories can somehow cause physical and mental illness later in life.

    It was very a convenient concept for the BPSers because they could claim that, for example, even though you remember having a happy childhood, your ME/CFS must have been caused by some forgotten sexual abuse in your distant past.

    (When I told a psychiatrist that my childhood was very happy, I could almost sense that he was about to make this exact claim but he stopped himself at the last minute. Perhaps it was because I had made it clear that I was very sceptical.)

    I recall there was a rash of allegations (even of bizarre Satanic cults and rituals) and court cases in the 90s which ruined a lot of people's lives until eventually all this nonsense was recognised for what it was.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  6. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    I have truly fallen down the rabbit hole of crazy watching these documentaries (soon I will be recollecting that I was abducted by aliens and inducted into their satanic cult :alien:, in a past life of course. I am sure I will also falsely accuse some of you of being the killers of bambi's mother, and you might also be responsible for the extinction of dinasours :bored:).

    I had forgotten so much about these cases, which magically seemed to have disappeared from the mainstream. There must be a lot of people who were seriously damaged by all this.

    It would make an interesting study in human psychology to see how easily fooled the counsellers were by their own fantasies. Some of it was probably a money thing (or at least it helped that it was a money earner), and some of it was probably a power and ego thing, and once they thought they had the "truth" nothing, not even reason, could stop them. It was like some sort of religious mania.

    That guy from Berkley I mentioned above was great. I will transcribe some of his comments some other time.

    A few other voices of sanity from the psychological profession in this documentary (in 3 parts) below, but also a lot of crazy stuff. One therapist mentions a patient having memories of being in the fallopian tube :rolleyes:

    These are about repressed memory syndrome.

    Divided Memories Part 1: The Hunt for Memories (1)


    Divided Memories Part 1: The Hunt for Memories (2)


    Divided Memories Part 1: The Hunt for Memories (3)
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  7. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    A few more.

    Panic over crack-babies exaggerated (I know this was probably more pediatrics and neurology and not psychiatry but thought I would include it as it fits the mould)



    Shaken-baby-syndrome (this might be a genuine disorder, but it looks like it was over-diagnosed at one point at least)

     
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  8. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    On Satanic Ritual Abuse

    This is a great video on "true believers" who train therapists. How on earth did professionals buy into this nonsense? Mind you, I can see how they bought into the idea that ME was mass hysteria if they believed this nonsense.

    Sometimes when you hear discussions of the Satanic Panic etc. I think (this is from memory) it is spoken of as a criticism of the general public getting carried away, and a mass irrational hysteria, but it was the general public putting too much faith into professionals that seems to be more of a problem, or at least that is what started it off. It looks like it was professionals heavily promoting this stuff (and to some extent if you are not with us you are against us and maybe part of the cult.....).

    This is short and has some classic stuff. Kind of hilarious watching it, but also disturbing due to their influence and the damage they did.

    They interview one therapist who wrote a paper and potential signs of abuse were...wait for it...fear of blood, creepy crawlies and ketchup. And in art work of children lonely mountain or lake scenes and Christmas trees!

    Another therapist interviewed says "if you're looking for hard proof, concrete proof....I don't have any of that kind of proof'.

    Someone from the FBI (? he is not named but seems to be from the FBI. I think this is a clip from a longer piece) makes some excellent points. He said that they keep having to make the conspiracy larger and more bizarre in order to explain things (e.g. if there is no proof that is because the police are involved and they government and all the way up to the president....). It reminded me a bit of pizzagate. He points out that there is nothing you can say to them to change their mind as they have an "explanation" for everything. Sounds familiar.

    Dr. Roland Summit (interviewed here) had given a talk to mental health professionals and warned them to be wary of police!

     
  9. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    More on Satanic Ritual Abuse

    From 1993 Prime Time

    One psychiatrist mentions that it is big business but that he also thinks some therapists seem to think that they are on some kind of crusade.

    Dr. Corydon Hammond, who lectures other therapists on this supposed phenomenon, when questioned whether he ever saw evidence of ceremonies, admits he didn't but says "We as therapists shouldn't be responsible for providing evidence" (he also claims, one of the reasons there is no evidence is that mortitians are involved and doctors who provide phoney death certificates)

     
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  10. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    I am wondering if this sort of stuff was maybe a factor in Simon Wessely and Co. thinking that ME was a case of mass hysteria fuelled by "believer" doctors? Maybe they thought they were being a voice of reason against a similar craziness as the satanic panic etc?

    Once there were in then they kept defending it, in spite of lack of evidence, or even evidence against their views, so behaving more like the "satanic panic" therapists.

    There are some key differences though between ME and satanic panic patients, which should be pretty obvious. We are not believing something that is totally out there. And the patients, who were basically brainwashed into believing the satanic panic - they were not coming up with it themselves, did have psychological problems which they originally went in for, normal stuff like reactive depression and the like, and it was the therapist who put the crazy stuff into their head.

    With ME patients the problem normally starts after a virus and patients think it is a physical problem, and it sounds a bit like some other post viral conditions (post-polio and post-Guillame Barre Syndrome). Patients can be symptomatic way before they see a doctor, or before they are taken seriously, so it is not a question of a doctor putting the idea in their head.
     
  11. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    This is all terrible! :emoji_astonished:

    I wish I could say "they'll all pay", but - did those responsible for the Inquisition pay? Or others who did terrible things? Mostly no. :(
     
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  12. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    I know i am posting a lot here but want to do it while it is in my head and the links are on my computer.

    Multiple Personality Disorder

    This is interesting about Sybil (supposedly a multiple personality disorder). Personally I don't think she was hysterical never mind MPD. I think there is a chance she knew what she was doing initially and did it to please the therapist and then got carried away and maybe ended up believing some of it herself (admitedly I don't know enough to really have a strong opinion, just going on what I have seen recently).

    It sounds (if what her friend says was true) like she was quite a dependent type of person (so overly dependent on parents, then therapist and friends). I know some people like this, and to be honest it works for them on some level so they keep doing it, but it also means they don't learn skills that would see them through. Possibly this type of person would be even more likely to try to please the therapist, but also manipulate the therapist into thinking they need to parent them almost.

    Apparently a lot of what was in the book about her was provably made-up. A lot of MPD patients were medicated as well as hypnotised so very open to suggestion. Also some patients were given books on multiple personalities, and subsequently "revealed" their own personalities to the therapist.

    This is a short overview of the Sybil story



    An interview with her friend



    A lecture by a journalist who wrote a book on her


    [This talk is very interesting about the Sybil case. I think in this talk she falls for the hysteria idea a bit in a way. She criticises it on the one hand but seems to believe it a bit with the other. I think there is a chance "Sybil" and other alleged hysterics actually know what they are doing in the beginning. Of course then there are the misdiagnosed cases. She mentions very early cases of supposed MPD and what might have been wrong with the diganosis, again the patients being basically coached to come up with different personalities]
     
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  13. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Well, unfortunately, what Richard Ofshe says in the Sally Show hasn't made it to today. There's still the strong belief of "repressed memories" and that childhood "traumata" (even those that cannot be remembered) cause illnesses of the body.
     
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  14. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD)

    This isn't as interesting as the other pieces, but still has a few gems. At about 26 minutes, a psychiatrist who treated "Sybil", while her usual therapist was away, said she never exhibited alter personalities when with him, but also other information from the patient looked like she was encouraged to perform personalities for her original therapist (the one who worked with the journalist on the book.)

    And also a patient diagnosed with MPD who is also a therapist :nailbiting: says it doesn't affect her work (could also be interpreted as her alters don't come out when it would actually have consequences for her). She also says denial of MPD can form part of the diagnostic process :banghead:

    She says "It's very common for people to say, 'I've just been making all this up, this isn't really happening, I made a mistake, ...I'm not multiple'. I may simply remind the person that that's such a common part of MPD, to have a tremendous amount of denial, that it can actually be used as an indicator of having it". :banghead::banghead::banghead:

    and she goes on "they resist, they have a great deal of difficulty with being able to know and to be able to hold on to that knowing, that that's really what is going on" :banghead::mad:

    She sounds a bit Freudian, with this forcing her incorrect interpretation, based on her theoretical preconceptions, to the patient.

     
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  15. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    I know, at best all anyone can hope for is that some of them get sued, their insurance companies pay out and restrict their practices (or refuse to insure them so that they have to stop practicing).

    I haven't really got a sense of how all the madness stopped. I wonder if illness insurers as well as the insurers of these therapists/psychiatrists/doctors forced them to see sense? Ironically in that case it would be insurers operating to the benefit of patients.

    One documentaries mentioned criminals trying to use MPD as a defence so that would have raised some eyebrows. Also probably they made the mistake of over-shooting with the wild conspiracy theories about the police etc so that would have got more people looking critically at it.

    Yes repressed memories is a very handy one for psychiatrists and psychologists. Heads we win, tails you lose sort of thinking.
     
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  16. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    CNN producer goes undercover (as a depressed patient) and the therapist seems to be starting to work towards diagnosing her with repressed memories of sexual abuse (and gives her a book on it).

    One person mentions one of the reasons patients fall for it is that they are told the books that they need to do this treatment to get better

     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  17. Viola

    Viola Established Member (Voting Rights)

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    Last one for tonight.

    One critic refers to how the therapy sessions are focused on anger and he refers to them as Hate Sessions. Sessions where more and more hate is considered to be therapeutic. He gives a good description of how people get sucked into this (after 30 minutes in especially).

    A patient, Laura Pasely, makes some interesting points (about 29 minutes 54 seconds in) My emphasis in bold:

    [This seems to be the go-to excuses for therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists when their treatment doesn't work]

    About 37 minutes 40 they list how therapists and patients are told how they might recognise that they have been the victims of sexual abuse. It is quite funny, subject aside. Talk about covering all angles. These are things they list [I thought this was an add first but it has the same voice as a later piece, so they must be reading out something that was written down or that patients/therapists were told. I've seen this list in one of the other documentaries so it seems legit. I think it might be from the Courage to Heal]:

    If you are over protective of children, or are unable to protect children.

    Are super alert, are spaced out.

    Are promiscuous, are frigid

    Are a risk taker, are unable to take risks [hmm doesn't that cover everyone then?]

    Are an alcoholic, Abstain from drinking :laugh:



    I sometimes have thought I am too harsh on the psychiatric profession, but watching this I think I haven't been critical enough. Batshit crazy this stuff is, and abusive towards patients.
     
  18. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    I thought that this article from the Guardian by Will Storr might belong here. It is worth reading if for no other reason than the apparent belief system of a person allegedly a "former head of ethics at the British Medical Association".

    The Mystery of Carole Myers.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2011/dec/11/carole-myers-satanic-child-abuse

    I came across this when looking for further information after reading this in the Guardian today. (EDIT This is relevant in that it deals with undiagnosed EDS and the problems surrounding misdiagnosis.)

    We believe you harmed your child. The war over shaken baby convictions.
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/08/shaken-baby-syndrome-war-over-convictions

    These look to be exactly the sort of enquiring journalism which we need.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
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  19. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Why aren't psychology experts/psychiatrists thus questioned when in court? Their 'expertise' is looked upon as science although what they say is most often subjective.
     

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