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Wessely gets touchy feely

Discussion in 'Psychosomatic news - ME/CFS and Long Covid' started by Estherbot, Nov 4, 2017.

  1. Bill

    Bill Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    Sly Saint, Jan, Joh and 16 others like this.
  2. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    "in the later stages of treatment patients are encouraged to increase their activity (which must ultimately be the aim of any treatment)"

    Wessely, David, Butler, & Chalder – 1990


    For once I, and probably every patient, agree with Wessely, et al: Increase in overall activity capacity must be the primary goal of any non-palliative treatment. (The primary goal of palliative treatments is the reduction of discomfort and distress.)

    It is a goal that also just happens to be definitely suitable to objective outcome measures, ranging from direct physical measures such as actometers, to more indirect measures such as employment levels.

    Which is why the psychs, including Wessely, are now running a million miles from objective outcome measures.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
    Zombie Lurker, Jan, Viola and 15 others like this.
  3. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    That is my current interpretation. They have moved away from objective outcome measures when they found that all of them reliably discredit their conclusions.
     
    Zombie Lurker, Jan, Joh and 18 others like this.
  4. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    If that isn't a massive warning sign to the rest of medicine and science, I don't know what is.
     
    Jan, Viola, TigerLilea and 11 others like this.
  5. FreeSarah

    FreeSarah Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    So, should Sir Simon from now on be Dr Feelgood? (If so, I wonder if @Bill could locate one of his old album covers)
     
    Barry, Inara, markiemark and 4 others like this.
  6. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Welcome to psychopsychiatry.
     
    healthforall, Jan, Skycloud and 9 others like this.
  7. Obermann

    Obermann Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    A poetic celebration of Sir Simon, Regius Professor at King’s College London, who thinks with his soul and feels with his mind!

    There was a professor at King’s
    who thought of the matter of things.
    He noticed his mind
    was nowhere to find;
    the soul much more clarity brings!
     
    Joh, healthforall, Jan and 12 others like this.
  8. meandthecat

    meandthecat Established Member

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    More Dr Strangelove channeling Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz
     
    Jan, Barry, Inara and 2 others like this.
  9. FreeSarah

    FreeSarah Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    :) though even a Vogon might disown "I think with my soul"
     
    Inara, Wonko, ladycatlover and 2 others like this.
  10. chrisb

    chrisb Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Doctors who feel with their mind and think with their soul
    Should really crawl back in their endarkenment hole.
    On why they have fingers
    The question still lingers
    As they search after some useful role.
     
    Jan, Inara, Trish and 5 others like this.
  11. meandthecat

    meandthecat Established Member

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    The ballad of Trofim Lysenko, or how things went badly wrong for Soviet science

    There was a young chap called Wessenko
    Who was eager and willing to please
    Feeling political pressure he began to manipulate peas
    But peasants were easy and peas were too tough
    Getting them back on the land would be enough.

    His master's were pleased, he rose to the top
    His concepts were crap he cared not a jot
    Millions were hurt but he reigned supreme
    Science had lost yet again.

    I am Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz
     
    Jan, Inara, chrisb and 3 others like this.
  12. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    I expect Wessely probably was pretty smart at Uni. Lots of these apparent idiots are probably technically intelligent. It just goes to show its all about training and standards. A smart person who enters a field with low quality standards will probably just absorb those standards and produce work in accordance with them.

    It does surprise me that doctors - who mostly had to do well at school to get into medicine - can be so poor at actually thinking. Its not the raw capacity, its the culture and the way they are trained.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
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  13. Woolie

    Woolie Senior Member

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    Nice point, @large donner (nice to see you ere by the way!)
     
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  14. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Yes.
     
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  15. Hoopoe

    Hoopoe Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    There may also be an aspect to it that historically illnesses that are not understood are viciously psychologized (if we cannot find out what's wrong, then the patient's thinking, feeling, or behaviour must somehow be causing the symptoms or an incorrect perception of illness).

    Psychiatry is given these patients and expected to somehow fix or at least help these patients. They're given a problem that is impossible to solve with the skills and tools they have. Much confusion also seems to result from a failure to distinguish between treatment of a disease and nonspecific interventions that would make many feel better (like massage, a good social network, good eating, etc). Even if we ignore the issue of nonspecific treatment effects, it's still incorrect the assume that a response to these interventions is suggestive of a psychosocial etiology of illness. Such an assumption could then lead to a situation where researchers, citing previous modest results with nonspecific interventions, continue to try and understand and solve the illness from a psychosocial angle, with the end result being a lack of meaningful progress.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  16. Sean

    Sean Moderator Staff Member

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    They are best at thinking inside the box, at reproducing known methods and results.

    But not so much at thinking outside it, which is what is required for original insightful productive research.

    Doctors, who largely come from the top percent or two of school students, don't generally make good researchers. Different skill and mind sets. Clinicians have to apply known knowledge, and they are mostly very good at it, and we should be grateful for that.

    But when faced with serious unknowns, they are not so good, including not so good at admitting it. That is where the research skill and mind sets need to come into play.

    Quite rare for both to exist in one person to a high degree.
     
  17. TiredSam

    TiredSam Committee Member

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    He should be Doctor TheEvidence.

    Do not ever, and I mean ever, spoil my memories of the great Dr Feelgood.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp2DvPKh118


     
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  18. Kalliope

    Kalliope Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Woolie, ladycatlover and Trish like this.
  19. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Funny, that was exactly I thought of.... :D

    There used to be similar fights between the church and...anyone else who dared to contradict them :)
     
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  20. Inara

    Inara Senior Member (Voting Rights)

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    Hey @Joel, that gif is just hillarious, thanks! :thumbup:
     
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